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$Unique_ID{USH01569}
$Pretitle{132}
$Title{The Nixon Tapes
February 28, 1973. (9:12am - 10:23am)}
$Subtitle{}
$Author{Nixon, Richard M.}
$Affiliation{Senate Judiciary Committee}
$Subject{nixon
pres
dean
john
get
say
now
deleted
inaudible
right}
$Volume{}
$Date{1974}
$Log{}
Book: The Nixon Tapes
Author: Nixon, Richard M.
Affiliation: Senate Judiciary Committee
Date: 1974
February 28, 1973. (9:12am - 10:23am)
Meeting: President Nixon and John Dean, Oval Office
John Dean: Good morning, Sir.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, hi.
John Dean: How are you?
Pres. Nixon: I wanted to talk with you about what kind of a line to take. I
now want Kleindienst on the - it isn't a matter of trust. You
have it clearly understood that you will call him and give him
directions and he will call you, et cetera, and so on. I just
don't want Dick to go off - you see, for example, on executive
privilege - I don't want him to go off and get the damn thing -
get us
John Dean: Make any deals on it -
Pres. Nixon: Make a deal - that is the point. Baker, as I said, is going to
keep at arm's length and you've got to be very firm with these
guys or you may not end up with many things. Now as I said the
only back-up position I can possibly see is one of a
(inaudible) if Kleindienst wants to back (inaudible) for
(inaudible) - didn't want to but suggested we ought to back
them heavily, send them up there in executive session. Well,
now you all know that under executive session we still have the
problem, and it ain't good. Well, I am thinking particularly
of Baker because it will go to him without any question and
that is going to be far more significant. This bothers us at
the moment, but that's (inaudible) to me. And they will haul
him up there and bull-rag him around the damn place and it will
raise holy hell with Rogers and all our - the other people.
John Dean: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: I sent some notes out - a couple of yellow pages - something on
the teachers' thing that I am not doing to-day. Just send it
back to me, please.
Secretary: Alright, Sir.
Pres. Nixon: So you see, I think you better have a good, hard face to face
talk with him and say, look, we have thought this thing over.
And you raise the point with him that this cannot be in
executive session because he is likely to float it out there
and they will grab it.
John Dean: That's right, and as I mentioned yesterday, he is meeting with Sam
Ervin and Baker in this joint session and that is probably one
of the first things they will discuss.
Pres. Nixon: The main thing Ervin is going to be talking about is executive
privilege. Has that meeting been set yet, though?
John Dean: No, it has not. There is ample time to have Dick go up there -
Pres. Nixon: You have a talk with him and say we had a talk about this - now
your position now I know (inaudible) which they probably never
accept but it will make his position be reasonable in the
public mind. That is what we have in mind.
John Dean: Right. Correct.
Pres. Nixon: Another possibility is the one that Ehrlichman has suggested.
If you could have an agreement that the Chairman and the
ranking member could question basically the same under very
restricted - a little bit early (inaudible)
John Dean: Them coming down here, say?
Pres. Nixon: Basically, that is the suggestion.
John Dean: I think that is sort of "if" we couldn't get the written
interrogatories. That is still a serious precedent to deal
with if they come down here and start questioning people I
think the issues would have to be so narrowed for even that
situation. And that sort of thing would evolve with the
narrowing of the issues where what information a Haldeman or
Ehrlichman might have. The Committee needs to be complete in
its report of its investigation.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah. We will say that you can have written interrogatories
under oath, then answer questions.
John Dean: Publicly you are not withholding any information and you are not
using the shield of the Presidency.
Pres. Nixon: When you talk to Kleindienst - because I have raised this
(inaudible) thing with him on the Hiss Case he has forgotten, I
suppose. Go back and read the first chapter of Six Crises.
But I know, as I said, that was espionage against the nation,
not against the party. FBI, Hoover, himself, who's a friend of
mine said "I am sorry I have been ordered not to cooperate with
you" and they didn't give us one (adjective omitted) thing. I
conducted that investigation with two (characterization
omitted) committee investigators - that stupid - they were
tenacious. We got it done. Then we worked that thing. We
then got the evidence, we got the typewriter, we got the
Pumpkin Papers. We got all of that ourselves. The FBI did not
cooperate. The Justice Department did not cooperate. The
Administration would not answer questions except, of course,
for Cabinet officers, I mean like Burling came down and some of
the others.
John Dean: Funny, when the shoe is on the other foot how they look at things,
isn't it?
Pres. Nixon: Well, as I said, the New York Times, the Washington Post and all
the rest. They put it in terms of executive privilege because
they were against the investigation. So the real question now
is say that I having been through that - we have talked it over
and that I have always felt very miffed about that because I
thought that was very wrong and now this is another matter.
But I think we ought to cooperate in finding an area of
cooperation. Here it is. You see, the Baker theory is that he
wants to have a big slambang thing for a whole week and then he
thinks interest in the whole thing will fall off. And he is
rig t about that. But his interest in having a big slambang
for a week is that we bring all the big shots up right away.
The big shots you could bring up. They could bring up Stans.
They have to put him on, and they've got to put Mitchell on.
They would like, of course, to get Haldeman, Ehrlichman and
Colson.
John Dean: I understand that you and Bob have talked about running Stans out
as sort of a stalking horse on it, on another post.
Pres. Nixon: It is not my idea. I guess Moore or somebody mentioned it.
John Dean: I think it was my idea. I think it could be one defusing factor
in the hearings. Stans would like to get his story out. He is
not in any serious problem ultimately. It could be rough and
tumble, but Maury is ready to take it and it would be a
mini-hearing there is no doubt about it. But this further
detracts from the other committee.
Pres. Nixon: It would be a mini-hearing, it is true. Except knowing the
Press and knowing - like they have taken - they sold several of
these stories about Colson and Haldeman about four times.
John Dean: Well, I know that.
Pres. Nixon: Well, I just wonder if that doesn't do that?
John Dean: At present I hesitate to send Stans. They would give him a hot
seat.
Pres. Nixon: Somebody is after him about Vesco. I first read the story
briefly in the Post. I read, naturally, the first page and
turned to the Times to read it. The Times had in the second
paragraph that the money had been returned, but the Post didn't
have it.
John Dean: That is correct.
Pres. Nixon: The Post didn't have it until after you continued to the back
section. It is the (adjective omitted) thing I ever saw.
John Dean: Typical.
Pres. Nixon: My guess is the Star pointed out (inaudible) that they -
(inaudible). Actually they got the money after the 10th, but I
don't think they pointed out that Sears got it before.
John Dean: For all purposes, the donor - Vesco
Pres. Nixon: Stans would never do a thing like that! Never. Never. Never.
John Dean: I think we have a good strong case that the donor had relinquished
control of the money, and constructive possession of the money
was in the hands of the finance committee, Sears and the like.
So that there is not - ah -
Pres. Nixon: How did they get my brother in it? Eddie?
John Dean: That was sheer sandbagging of your brother. Here is what they
did. They called him down here in Washington.
Pres. Nixon: Who did?
John Dean: It was Vesco and Sears and said that, "we want to talk to you
about the nature of this transaction because we have had
earlier conversations with Stans." He really wasn't privy to
it, and didn't know much about it, but what the long and short
of it was that they were after him to find out from Stans
whether they wanted cash or checks. Stans just responded to
your brother and said, "I don't really care - whatever they
want to do," and that is what he relayed back. He didn't even
understand why he was there. He is just as clean as a whistle.
There is just nothing there at all.
Pres. Nixon: I know that. I know that myself. So you sort of lean to having
Stans starting out there?
John Dean: I think it would take a lot of the teeth out of the - you know -
the stardom of the people are trying to build up to. If Stans
has already gone to a hearing in another committee, obviously
they will use everything they have at that time and it won't be
a hell of a lot. It confuses the public. The public is bored
with this thing already.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
John Dean: One of the things I think we did succeed in before the election -
Pres. Nixon: Stans is very clean. Unless I make a mistake on this thing, the
way I analyze it, and I have stayed deliberately away from it,
but I think I can sense what it is. The way I analyze the
thing, Stans would have been horrified at any such thing. And,
what happened was he honestly is outraged. He thinks - what
happened was he thinks he eventually found a line on somebody's
hard earned cash and got into this silly business with it.
John Dean: He does and he is a victim of circumstances, of innuendo, of false
charges. He has a darn good chance of winning that libel suit
he has against Larry O'Brien.
Pres. Nixon: Has he?
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Good. That's why Larry filed a counter suit.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: I see. Ziegler was disturbed at the news that they subpoenaed
newsmen. Did that disturb you?
John Dean: No, it didn't disturb me at all. No Sir. I talked with Ron at
some length about it the other night. I said, "Ron, first of
all you can rest assured that the White House was not involved
in that decision." Exceptional case.
Pres. Nixon: It should involve prosecution.
John Dean: No, it is a civil deposition and it is not because we haven't
reached the newsman's privilege issue yet, and that is way down
the road yet, if for some reason they refuse to testify on some
given evidence. What they are trying to establish is the fact
that Edward Bennett Williams' law firm passed out an amended
complaint that libeled Stans before it was into the Court
process, so it was not privileged. And the newsmen are the
people who can answer that question. Also they are trying to
find out how Larry O'Brien and Edward Bennett Williams made
statements to the effect that this law suit - the first law
suit they had filed against the Committee - was not really to
establish any invasion of privacy threat, rather they were
harrassing the Committee.
Pres. Nixon: The Committee to Re-Elect?
John Dean: They made this off the record to several newsmen and we know they
did this. That this was a drummed up law suit.
Pres. Nixon: So therefore that proves also malice, doesn't it?
John Dean: It makes the abuse of process case that we have against them on a
counter suit. And the lawyers made a very conscious and good
decision to proceed with the suit and if they did, they were
going to have to have this information and it doesn't bother me
if they subpoenaed nine or ten -
Pres. Nixon: Well, one hell of a lot of people don't give one damn about this
issue of the suppression of the press, etc. We know that we
aren't trying to do it. They all squeal about it. It is
amusing to me when they say - I watched the networks and I
thought they were restrained. What (expletive omitted) do they
want them to do - go through the 1968 syndrome when they were 8
to 1 against us. They are only three to one this time. It is
really sickening though to see these guys. These guys have
always figured we have the press on our side. You know we
receive a modest amount of support - no more. Colson sure
making them move it around, saying we don't like this or that
and (inaudible)
John Dean: Well, you know Colson's threat of a law suit which was printed in
Evans and Novak had a very sobering effect on several of the
national magazines. They are now checking before printing a
lot of this Watergate junk they print. They check the press
office trying to get a confirmation or denial, or call the
individuals involved. And they have said they are doing it
because they are afraid a libel suit on them. So it did have a
sobering effect. We will keep them honest if we can remind
them that they can't print anything and get away with it.
Pres. Nixon: Well, as you of course know, at the time of the Hills case
(inaudible)
John Dean: Yes, I have noticed. We have to establish, one, malice for
reckless disregard (inaudible)
Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Malice is impossible for (inaudible) It has to get, it's
got to get up in through me. (inaudible) Reckless disregard
maybe.
John Dean: Tough. That is a bad decision, Mr. President. It really is a bad
decision.
Pres. Nixon: What is the name of the case - horrible.
John Dean: (inaudible) & Sullivan and it came out of the South on a civil
rights.
Pres. Nixon: It was about some guy who was a police chief or something.
Anyway, I remember reading it at the time when I thought we
were suing LIFE for Hills. When LIFE was guilty as hell.
John Dean: Did you win it?
Pres. Nixon: Supreme Court - four to three. There were a couple missing or
it would have probably been five to three and one-half.
Pres. Nixon: Well, let's go back so it is clearly understood. We must go
forward on that. I think you had better go over and get in
touch with Dick. And say Dick you keep it at your level.
Pres. Nixon: My guess is that he is going to be in the end, and I would say,
"this is the position, Dick, you should take on this." Tell
him I took that position with Baker. Baker is a smoothy -
impressive - The President didn't say this or that - they
recommended it and the President has approved it. Right? Is
that what you would say?
John Dean: Yes sir, I think that is absolutely on all fours. And how about
our dealings with Baker? Under normal Congressional relations,
viz-a-viz Timmons and Baker, should we have Timmons dealing?
Pres. Nixon: Well, he objected to (inaudible) something that is a curious
thing on that (inaudible) made a very big gaff calling him and
urging and trying to influence who would be on his staff.
(expletive omitted) I don't know why he did that, if he did.
But if he did. I don't know why Baker would resent it. But,
nevertheless, I don't know how to deal with him, frankly.
HR Haldeman: Why don't you ask (inaudible) to see him.
Pres. Nixon: I gathered the impression that Baker didn't want to talk with
anyone but Kleindienst.
John Dean: Well, OK, I think that is one we will just have to monitor and
that is one we will have to know an awful lot about along the
road.
Pres. Nixon: Well let Timmons tell Baker that if he wants to talk with
anybody at the White House, if he says he doesn't want to talk
to Haldeman, doesn't want to talk to Ehrlichman, that you,
Dean, are available. But nobody else. How does that sound to
you?
John Dean: I think that sounds good.
Pres. Nixon: You tell Timmons that he sees him privately, and tells him
that's it. We are not pressing him. We don't care, because
Baker.
John Dean: I would suspect if we are going to get any insight to what that
Committee is going to do, it is going to be through Gurney. I
don't know about Weicker, where he is going to fall out on this
thing.
Pres. Nixon: Weicker, I think the line to Weicker is through Gray. Gray has
to shape up here and handle himself well too. Do you think he
will?
John Dean: I do. I think Pat has had it tough. He goes up this morning as
you know. He is ready. He is very comfortable in all of the
decisions he has made, and I think he will be good.
Pres. Nixon: But he is close to Weicker - that is what I meant.
John Dean: Yes, he is.
Pres. Nixon: And so Gray.
John Dean: Has a lead in there - yes.
Pres. Nixon: One amusing thing about the Gray thing, and I knew this would
come. They say Gray is a political crony and a personal crony
of the President's. Did you know that I have never seen him
socially?
John Dean: Is that correct? No, I didn't.
Pres. Nixon: I think he has been to a couple White House events, but I have
never seen him separately.
John Dean: The Press has got him meeting you at a social function. And, back
in 1947, (inaudible) is something I have read.
Pres. Nixon: Maybe at a Radford party or something like that. That's all. I
don't know. But Gray is somebody that I know only - He was
Radford's Assistant, used to attend NSC meetings. He has never
been a social friend. Edgar Hoover, on the other hand, I have
seen socially at least a hundred times. He and I were very
close friends.
John Dean: This is curious the way the press -
Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) - Hoover was my crony. He was closer to me
than Johnson, actually although Johnson used him more. But as
for Pat Gray, (expletive deleted) I never saw him.
John Dean: While it might have been a lot of blue chips to the late Director,
I think we would have been a lot better off during this whole
Watergate thing if he had been alive. Because he knew how to
handle that Bureau - knew how to keep them in bounds.
Pres. Nixon: Well, Hoover performed. He would have fought. That was the
point. He would have defied a few people. He would have
scared them to death. He has a file on everybody.
Pres. Nixon: But now at the present time, the Bureau is leaking like a sieve
to Baker, (inaudible). It isn't coming from Henry Petersen is
it?
John Dean: No. I would just not believe that.
Pres. Nixon: Is isn't coming from that (unintelligible).
John Dean: No. Well, they are getting the raw data. They are getting what
they call the 302 forms. Actually, the summaries of the
interviews.
Pres. Nixon: If you could handle it that way, I think that is the best thing
to do. Do you ever wonder really if Colson (characterization
deleted) should bring a suit. For example, I notice that
Colson has a lot of vulnerabilities. You know, in terms of
people that he knew, et cetera, et cetera. But I mean on a
narrow issue
John Dean: Well, Chuck and I talked about this. He could possibly win a
suit, but lose the war, for this reason: A counter-discovery
in a libel action has no bounds.
Pres. Nixon: I get it. OK.
John Dean: That's the problem there.
Pres. Nixon: That the District Court (inaudible).
John Dean: Federal Court. They could just come in and depose him on
everything he has done at this point in time.
Pres. Nixon: Keep him out of it. Keep him out of it.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: What - Why doesn't Stans be the sue-er?
John Dean: He's got a good one, and he may well prevail. It may well be the
decisive settlement of all these other suits we've got out
there. You know, we have 14 million dollar suits against us,
and we have 7 or 10 against them. (expletive deleted) They
ought to all get together and drop them.
John Dean: That is what we are trying to get accomplished.
Pres. Nixon: Hell, yes!
John Dean: It is just causing everybody problems.
Pres. Nixon: That is right - they've got problems, and we've got problems.
Pres. Nixon: You see this Vesco thing coming up burns my tail. I raised hell
with Haldeman on this and he didn't do anything about. I guess
he couldn't. What (expletive omitted) became of our
investigation of their financial activities? (Expletive
omitted) They cancelled debts, they borrowed money. What the
hell is that?
John Dean: It is still going on, Mr. President. McGovern's stuff is in such
bad shape. That is another unfortunate thing. The GAO comes
into audit us. They find all the documents, so they are able
to make
Pres. Nixon: Just like two year old state tax.
John Dean: They have now, but it gets about that much coverage in the paper.
They can't even figure out what McGovern's done, the books are
such a mess, but you haven't seen them say anything yet. And
that is one of the things that hopefully we will bring out in
hearings, as to what a mess this was, et cetera.
Pres. Nixon: How are you going to bring it out? You can't bring it out in
these hearings.
John Dean: Well I think I would rather do it independently, so that the media
types will bring it out. Chuck is going to be of aid when he
is out there not connected with the White House, coming through
with bits of tidbits. Chuck will still have his channels to
flip things out.
Pres. Nixon: Sure! Sure! In my view - of course it is hard to believe since
he loves the action and the rest - but apart from the financial
- for the country's aid, etc. - I don't care what you think:
Colson can be more valuable out than in, because, basically in,
he has reached the point that he was too visible.
John Dean: A lightning rod.
Pres. Nixon: And outside he can start this and say that I am a private
citizen and I can say what I (expletive omitted) please.
John Dean: Right. I think Chuck can be of great aid in this thing, and I
think he will do it.
Pres. Nixon: Now, as to the other thing. Just to recap. You will talk to
Timmons about Baker, and get that tied down if you can. I
doubt if much can be done there. Then when you talk to
Kleindienst, he should know that it has been decided, and
that's it. Well, he will say they won't take me. Then say
"why not?" We shall see. Going on to the interrogatory thing
- we shall see - your view would not to give any further ground
on that?
John Dean: I would say hope not. You initially hold the line as far as you
can go. If it becomes necessary for informational purposes,
the President is not going to hide any information. He has
just given a sworn statement through an interrogatory - send
your questions down they will be answered. We won't hide the
information - we won't diminish the ability of the President to
operate internally and the like because we have a political
circus going.
Pres. Nixon: OK. I understand that Molenhoff still thinks everybody should
go up and testify.
John Dean: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: At least you had a talk with him. I do want you to look at the
case, though.
John Dean: Yes Sir.
Pres. Nixon: If the guy's got a bad rap, this man, (expletive omitted) we
will get him out of it!
John Dean: I am doing that. I talked with Clark yesterday. I talked with
him last night again. He is on this as hot and heavy as can be
and -
Pres. Nixon: Does he think he's got a bad rap?
John Dean: He does - he thinks he's got a bad rap. I know Rule hasn't a bad
rap. When a bureaucrat takes it upon himself to go out, and go
way beyond the pale in terms of attacking an Administration
that can't be tolerated. Suppose a Congressman or a Senator or
one of his Administrative Assistants went out and attacked one
of his contributors. What would he do? Fire him! That's
right.
Pres. Nixon: I noticed where several of our Congressmen and Republican
Senators called upon us to reinstate Rule. Congress is, of
course, on its (inaudible). And yet they are so enormously
frustrated that they are exhausted. Isn't that the point?
John Dean: I think there is a lot of that.
Pres. Nixon: It is too bad. We can take very little comfort from it because
we have to work with them. But they become irrelevant because
they are so damned irresponsible, as much as we would like to
say otherwise.
John Dean: Yes, sir. I spent some years on the Hill myself and one of the
things I always noticed was the inability of the Congress to
deal effectively with the Executive Branch because they have
never provided themselves with adequate staffs, had adequate
information available -
Pres. Nixon: Well now they have huge staffs compared to what we had.
John Dean: Well they have huge staffs, true, as opposed to what they had
years ago. But they are still inadequate to deal effectively -
Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted) Don't try to help them out!
John Dean: I am not suggesting any reserve money for them. I ought to keep
my observations to myself. I think this is going to be very
different. It will be hot, I think they are going to be tough.
I think they are going to be gory in some regards, but I am
also absolutely convinced that if everyone pulls their own oar
in this thing, in all those we've got with various concerns, we
can make it through these things and minimal people will be
hurt. And they may even paint themselves as being such
partisans and off base, that they are really damaging to the
institutions of the government themselves.
Pres. Nixon: I frankly say that I would rather they would be partisan -
rather than for them to have a facade of fairness and all the
rest. Ervin always talks about his being a great Constitutional
lawyer. (expletive deleted) He's got Baker totally toppled over
to him. Ervin works harder than most of our Southern
gentlemen. They are great politicians. They are just more
clever than the minority. Just more clever!
John Dean: I am convinced that he has shown that he is merely a puppet for
Kennedy in this whole thing. The fine hand of the Kennedys is
behind this whole hearing. There is no doubt about it. When
they considered the resolution on the Floor of the Senate I got
the record out to read it. Who asked special permission to
have their Staff man on the floor? Kennedy brings this man -
Flug out on the floor when they are debating a resolution. He
is the only one who did this. It has been Kennedy's push
quietly, his constant investigation. His committee did the
(unintelligible) subpoenas to get at Kalmbach and all these
people.
Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh.
John Dean: He has kept this quiet and constant pressure on this thing. I
think this fellow Sam Dash, who has been selected Counsel, is a
Kennedy choice. I think this is also something we will be able
to quietly and slowly document. Leak this to the press, and
the parts and cast become much more apparent.
Pres. Nixon: Yes, I guess the Kennedy crowd is just laying in the bushes
waiting to make their move. I had forgotten, by the way, we
talk about Johnson using the FBI. Did your friends tell you
what Bobby did?
John Dean: I haven't heard but I wouldn't be -
Pres. Nixon: Johnson believed that Bobby bugged him.
John Dean: That wouldn't surprise me.
Pres. Nixon: Bobby was a ruthless (characterization omitted.) But the FBI
does blatantly tell you that or Sullivan told you about the New
Jersey thing. He did use a bug up there for intelligence work.
(inaudible)
John Dean: (inaudible) Intelligence workers had agents all over the property.
Pres. Nixon: The doctors say that the poor old gent had a tumor. The FBI
said he had one.
John Dean: He had Abe Fortas and Deke Deloache backed up by some other people
in the Bureau and try to talk this doctor into examining this
guy to say the man had a brain tumor. He was very
(unintelligible) ill, slightly erratic, but eager. This doctor
wouldn't buy it.
Pres. Nixon: The doctor had never examined him before or anything.
John Dean: No.
Pres. Nixon: They were trying to set it up though, huh? What other kind of
activities?
John Dean: Well, as I say, I haven't probed Sullivan to the depths on this
thing because I want to treat him at arm's length until he is
safe, because he has a world of information that may be
available.
Pres. Nixon: But he says that what happened on the bugging thing. Who told
what to whom again?
John Dean: On the '68 thing - I was trying to track down the leaks. He said
that the only place he could figure it coming from would be one
of a couple of sources he was bare of that had been somewhat
discovered publicly. He aid that Hoover had told Patrick Coyne
about the fact that this was done. Coyne had told
Rockefeller - now Rockefeller had told Kissinger. I have never
run it any step beyond what Mr. Sullivan said there. The other
thing is that when the records were unavailable for Mr. Hoover
all these logs, etc. Hoover tried to reconstruct them by going
to the Washington Field Office and he made a pretty good stir
about what he was doing when he was trying to get the record
and reconstruct it. He said that at that time we probably hit
the grapevine in the Bureau that this had occurred. But there
is no evidence of it. The records show at the Department of
Justice and the FBI that no such surveillance was ever
conducted.
Pres. Nixon: Shocking to me!
John Dean: What the White House had from reporters in -LIFE. The other
person who knows and is aware of it is Mark Felt, and we have
talked about Mark Felt before.
Pres. Nixon: Let's face it. Suppose Felt comes out now and under raps. What
does it do to him?
John Dean: He can't do it.
Pres. Nixon: How about (unintelligible)? Who is going to hire him? Let's
face it - the guy who goes out - he couldn't do it unless he
had a guarantee from somebody like TIME Magazine who would say
look we will give you a job for life. Then what do they do?
He would go to a job at - LIFE, and everyone would treat him
like a pariah. He is - in a very dangerous situation. These
guys you know - the informers. Look what it did to Chambers.
Chambers informed because he didn't give (expletive deleted).
But then one of the most brilliant writers according to Jim
Shepley we have ever seen in this country - and I am not
referring to the Communist issue - greatest writer of his time,
- about 30 years ago, probably TIME's best writer of the
century - they finished him. Either way, the informer is not
one in our society. Either way, that is the one thing people
can't survive. They say no civilized (characterization
deleted) informs. Hoover to Coyne to Nelson Rockefeller to
Kissinger. Right?
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Why did Coyne tell it to Nelson Rockefeller? I have known Coyne
for years. I haven't known him well, but he was a great friend
of one of my Administrative Assistants, Bob King, who used to
be a Bureau head.
John Dean: Now this is Sullivan's story. I have no reason to know whether it
is true, but I don't have any reason to doubt that it is true.
Pres. Nixon: Hoover told me, and he also told Mitchell personally that this
had happened.
John Dean: I was talking the '68 incident that occurred. I wasn't referring
to that now. When this Coyne, etc., this was the fact that
newsmen - excuse me I thought you were making reference to the
fact that three years ago the White House had allegedly -
Pres. Nixon: Oh, sure, sure. That is not the same one.
John Dean: On the '68 incident all I have been able to find out is what you
told me that Hoover had told you, what he had told Mitchell.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Mitchell corroborates that, doesn't he?
John Dean: Kevin Phillips called Pat Buchanan the other day with a tidbit
that Dick Whelan on the NSC staff has seen memoranda between
the NSC and the FBI that the FBI had been instructed to put
surveillance on Anna Chennault, the South Vietnamese Embassy
and the Agnew plane. This note also said that Deke DeLoach was
the operative FBI officer on this.
Pres. Nixon: The Agnew plane? I think DeLoach's memory now is very very
hazy. He doesn't remember anything.
John Dean: I talked to Mitchell about this and he has talked to DeLoach.
DeLoach has in his possession, and he has let Mitchell review
them, some of the files on this.
Pres. Nixon: But not -
John Dean: But they don't go very far; this is DeLoach protecting his own
hide.
Pres. Nixon: It is just as well because we can't do anything with it. So
Hoover told Coyne, who told Rockefeller, that newsmen were
being bugged.
John Dean: That tickles you. That is right.
Pres. Nixon: Why do you suppose they did that?
John Dean: I haven't the foggiest idea. It is a Sullivan story as to where
the leak might have come from about the current Time Magazine
story, which we are stonewalling to - tally here.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, absolutely.
---------------------------
Material unrelated to Presidential action deleted
---------------------------
Pres. Nixon: Well, is this the year you are going to try to get out the '68
story?
John Dean: Well, I think the threat of the '68 story when Scott and others
were arguing that the Committee up on the Hill broadened its
mandate to include other elections. They were hinting around
at something in 1968 and 1964 that should be looked at.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah, Goldwater claims he was bugged.
John Dean: That's right. Now I think that threats -
Pres. Nixon: Didn't you say that Johnson did bug Goldwater?
John Dean: Well, I don't know if he bugged him.
Pres. Nixon: He did intelligence work?
John Dean: He did intelligence up one side and down the other -
Pres. Nixon: From the FBI?
John Dean: Just up one side and down the other on Goldwater. I haven't had a
chance to talk to the Senator, and I have known the Senator for
twenty years. He is the first man in public life I ever met.
Barry Jr. and I were roommates in school together, so I can
talk to the man. So I am really going to sit down with him one
day and see what really happened.
Pres. Nixon: Does he have any hard evidence?
John Dean: Then we can go from there and.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
John Dean: Get some stuff written, etc. I do think you have to remember, as
I am sure you realize, this is mainly a public relations thing
anyway.
Pres. Nixon: What is the situation anyway with regard to the situation of the
sentencing of the seven? When in the hell is that going to
occur?
John Dean: That is likely to occur, I would say, as early as late this week,
but more likely sometime next week.
Pres. Nixon: Why has it been delayed so long?
John Dean: Well, they have been in the process of preparing a pre-sentence
report. The Judge sends out probation officers to find out
everybody who knew these people, and then he will.
Pres. Nixon: He is trying to work on them to see who will break them down?
John Dean: Well, there is some of that. They are using the probation officer
for more than the normal probation report. They are trying to
do a mini-investigation by the judge himself which is his only
investigative tool here so they are virtually completed now.
The U.S. Attorneys handles these, the Assistant U.S. Attorneys.
Pres. Nixon: You know when they talk about a 35 year sentence, here is
something to think about. There were no weapons! Right?
There were no injuries! Right? There was no success! Why
does that sort of thing happen? It is just ridiculous!
(Characterization deleted) Are they in jail?
John Dean: Well, all but one. Hunt made the bond - everybody else is in
jail. They have a $100,000 surety bond which means that they
have to put actual collateral, and none of these people have
$100,000. The Court of Appeals has been sitting for two weeks
or better now on a review of the bond issue and letting people
out for charity cases.
---------------------------
Material unrelated to Presidential action deleted
---------------------------
Pres. Nixon: You still think Sullivan is basically reliable?
John Dean: I have nothing to judge that on except that I have watched him for
a number of years. I watched him when he was working with Tom
Huston on domestic intelligence, and his desire to do the right
thing. I tried to stay in touch with Bill, and find out what
his moods are. Bill was forced on the outside for a long time.
He didn't become bitter. He sat back and waited until he could
come back in. He didn't try to force or blackmail his way
around with knowledge he had. So I have no signs of anything
but a reliable man who thinks a great deal of this
Administration and of you.
---------------------------
Material unrelated to Presidential action deleted
---------------------------
John Dean: I have got to say one thing. There has never been a leak out of
my office. There never was - be a leak out of my office. I
wouldn't begin to know how to leak and I don't want to learn
how you leak.
Pres. Nixon: Well, it was a shocking thing. I was reading a book last night.
A fascinating book, although fun book, by Malcolm Smith Jr. on
Kennedy's Thirteen Mistakes, the great mistakes. And one of
them was on the Bay of Pigs. And what had happened, there was
Chester Bowles had learned about it, and he deliberately leaked
it. Deliberately, because he wanted the operation to fail!
And be admitted it! Admitted it!
John Dean: Interesting. Interesting
Pres. Nixon: This happens all the time. Well, you can follow these
characters to their Gethsemane. I feel for those poor guys in
jail, particularly for Hunt with his wife dead.
John Dean: Well there is every indication they are hanging in tough right
now.
Pres. Nixon: What the hell do they expect though? Do they expect clemency in
a reasonable time? What would you advise on that?
John Dean: I think it is one of those things we will have to watch very
closely. For example, -
Pres. Nixon: You couldn't do it, say, in six months.
John Dean: No, you couldn't. This thing may become so political as a result
of these hearings that it is a vendetta. This judge may go off
the deep end in sentencing, and make it so absurd that its
clearly injustice that they have been heavily -
Pres. Nixon: Is there any kind of appeal left?
John Dean: Right. Liddy and McCord, who sat through the trial, will both be
on appeal and there is no telling how long that will last. It
is one of these things we will just have to watch.
Pres. Nixon: My view though is to say nothing about them on the ground that
the matter is still in the courts and on appeal. Second, my
view is to say nothing about the hearings at this point, except
that I trust they will be conducted the proper way and I will
not comment on the hearings while they are in process. Of
course if they break through - if they get muckraking - It is
best not to cultivate that thing here at the White House. If
it is done at the White House again they are going to drop the
(adjective deleted) thing. Now there, of course, you say but
you leave it all to them. We'll see as time goes on. Maybe we
will have to change our policy. But the President should not
become involved in any part of this case. Do you agree with
that?
John Dean: I agree totally, sir. Absolutely. That doesn't mean that quietly
we are not going to be working around the office. You can rest
assured that we are not going to be sitting quietly.
Pres. Nixon: I don't know what we can do. The people who are most disturbed
about this (unintelligible) are the (adjective deleted)
Republicans. A lot of these Congressmen, financial
contributors, et cetera, are highly moral. The Democrats are
just sort of saying, "(expletive deleted) fun and games!"
John Dean: Well, hopefully we can give them Segretti.
Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted) He was such a dumb figure, I don't see how
our boys could have gone for him. But nevertheless, they did.
It was really juvenile! But, nevertheless, what the hell did
he do? What in the (characterization deleted) did he do?
Shouldn't we be trying to get intelligence? Weren't they
trying to get intelligence from us?
John Dean: Absolutely!
Pres. Nixon: Don't you try to disrupt their meetings? Didn't they try to
disrupt ours? (expletive deleted) They threw rocks, ran
demonstrations, shouted, cut the sound system, and let the tear
gas in at night. What the hell is that all about? Did we do
that?
John Dean: McGovern had Dick Tuck on his payroll, and Dick Tuck was down in
Texas when you were down at the Connally ranch and set up to do
a prank down there. But it never came off.
Pres. Nixon: What did Segretti do that came off?
John Dean: He did some humorous things. For example, there would be a
fund-raising dinner, and he hired Wayne the Wizard to fly in
from the Virgin Islands to perform a magic show. He sent
invitations to all the black diplomats and sent limousines out
to have them picked up, and they all showed up and they hadn't
been invited. He had 400 pizzas sent to another -
Pres. Nixon: Sure! What the hell! Pranks! Tuck did all those things in
1960, and all the rest.
John Dean: I think we can keep the Segretti stuff in perspective because it
is not that bad. Chapin's involvement is not that deep. He
was the catalyst, and that is about the extent of it.
Pres. Nixon: Sure, he knew him and recommended him.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: But he didn't run him. He was too busy with us.
John Dean: The one I think they are going to go after with a vengeance - and
I plan to spend a great deal of time with next week, as a
matter of fact a couple of days getting this all in order - is
Herb Kalmbach.
Pres. Nixon: Yes.
John Dean: Herb - they have subpoenaed his records, and he has records that
run all over hell's acres on things. You know Herb has been a
man who has been moving things around for Maury and keeping
things in tow and taking care of -
Pres. Nixon: What is holding up his records?
John Dean: They already have gotten to the banks that had them, and what I
think we will do is that there will be a logical, natural
explanation for every single transaction. It is just a lot of
minutiaewe've got to go through but he is coming in next week
and I told him we would sit down and he is preparing everything
- all that is available, and we are going to sit down with
Frank DeMarco and see if we can't get this whole thing -
Pres. Nixon: They can't get his records with regard to his private
transactions?
John Dean: No, none of the private transactions. Absolutely, that is
privileged material. Anything to do with San Clemente and the
like - that is just so far out of bounds that -
Pres. Nixon: Did they ask for them?
John Dean: No. No indication.
Pres. Nixon: Kalmbach is a decent fellow. He will make a good witness.
John Dean: I think he will.
Pres. Nixon: He is smart.
John Dean: He has been tough thus far. He can take it. His skin is thick
now. Sure it bothered him when all this press was being played
up. LA Times were running stories on him all the time and the
like. Local stations have been making him more of a
personality and his partners have been nipping at him, but Herb
is tough now. He is ready and he is going to go through. He
is hunkered down and he is ready to handle it, so I am not
worried about Herb at all.
Pres. Nixon: Oh well, it will be hard for him. I suppose the big thing is
the financing transaction that they will go after him for. How
does the money get to the Bank of Mexico, etc.
John Dean: Oh, well, all that can be explained.
Pres. Nixon: It can?
John Dean: Yes, indeed! Yes, sir! They are going to be disappointed with a
lot of the answers they get. When they actually get the
facts - because the Times and the Post had such innuendo - when
they get the facts, they are going to be disappointed.
Pres. Nixon: The one point that you ought to get to Baker. I tried to get it
through his thick skull. His skull is not thick but tell
Kleindienst in talking to Baker - and Herb should emphasize
that the way to have a successful hearing and a fair one is to
run it like a court: no hearsay, no innuendo! Now you now -
John Dean: That's a hell of a good point.
Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) well, they are not going to but tell them
that is the way Nixon ran the Hiss Case. As a matter of fact
some innuendo came out, but there was (adjective deleted)
little hearsay. We really just got the facts, and tore them to
pieces. Say "no hearsay" and "no innuendo." Ervin should sit
like a court there: that is hearsay, and the counsel for our
people should get up and say, "I object to that, Mr. Chairman,"
on the basis that it is hearsay.
John Dean: That is a heck of an idea, Mr. President. Some of these early
articles said - will Sam Ervin, Constitutional man, be a judge?
Will he admit hearsay? We can try to get some think pieces out
to try to get a little pressure on him to perform that way, to
make it look like partisan when he doesn't.
Pres. Nixon: The point that Kleindienst gets out: no hearsay, no innuendo!
There will be no hearsay, no innuendo. This will be a model of
a Congressional hearing. That will disappoint the (adjective
deleted) press. No hearsay! No innuendo! No leaks!
John Dean: Well, there are a lot of precedents. I have been involved in two
Congressional investigations. One was the Adam Clayton Powell
investigation when I was working over there as the Minority
Counsel of the House Judiciary. We didn't take hearsay. We
stuck to the facts on that. We did an investigation of the
Oklahoma judges. Again, the same sort of thing. We went into
executive session when necessary. I bet if we look around,
respectable investigations that have been held up there that
could be held up, and some of it should be coming forth to set
the stage for these hearings. I am planning a number of brain
sessions with some of the media people to -
Pres. Nixon: I know. It is very important, but it seems like a terrible
waste of your time. But it is important in the sense that all
this business is a battle and they are going to wage the
battle. A lot of them have enormous frustrations about those
elections, state of their party, etc. And their party has its
problems. We think we have had problems, look at some of
theirs. Strauss has had people and all the actors, and they
haven't done that well you know.
John Dean: Well I was - we have come a long road on this thing now. I had
thought it was an impossible task to hold together until after
the election until things started falling out, but we have made
it this far and I am convinced we are going to make it the
whole road and put this thing in the funny pages of the history
books rather than anything serious because actually -
Pres. Nixon: It will be somewhat serious but the main thing, of course, is
also the isolation of the President.
John Dean: Absolutely! Totally true!
Pres. Nixon: Because that, fortunately, is totally true.
John Dean: I know that sir!
Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) Of course, I am not dumb and I will never
forget when I heard about this (adjective deleted) forced entry
and bugging. I thought, what in the hell is this? What is the
matter with these people? Are they crazy? I thought they were
nuts! A prank! But it wasn't! It wasn't very funny. I think
that our Democratic friends know that, too. They know what the
hell it was. They don't think we'd be involved in such.
John Dean: I think they do too.
Pres. Nixon: Maybe they don't. They don't think I would be involved in such
stuff. They think I have people capable of it. And they are
correct, in that Colson would do anything. Well, ok. - Have a
little fun. And now I will not talk to you again until you
have something to report to me.
John Dean: Alright, sir.
Pres. Nixon: But I think it is very important that you have these talks with
our good friend Kleindienst.
John Dean: That will be done.
Pres. Nixon: Tell him we have to get these things worked out. We have to
work together on this thing. I would build him up. He is the
man who can make the difference. Also point out to him what we
have. (expletive deleted) Colson's got (characterization
deleted), but I really, really, - this stuff here - let's
forget this. But let's remember this was not done by the White
House. This was done by the Committee to Re-Elect, and Mitchell
was the Chairman, correct?
John Dean: That's correct!
Pres. Nixon: And Kleindienst owes Mitchell everything. Mitchell wanted him
for Attorney General. Wanted him for Deputy, and here he is.
Now, (expletive deleted). Baker's got to realize this, and
that if he allows this thing to get out of hand he is going to
potentially ruin John Mitchell. He won't. Mitchell won't
allow himself to be ruined. He will put on his big stone face.
But I hope he does and he will. There is no question what they
are after. What the Committee is after is somebody at the
White House. They would like to get Haldeman or Colson,
Ehrlichman.
John Dean: Or possible Dean. - You know, I am a small fish.
Pres. Nixon: Anybody at the White House they would - but in your case I think
they realize you are the lawyer and they know you didn't have a
(adjective deleted) thing to do with the campaign.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: That's what I think. Well, we'll see you.
John Dean: Alright, sir. - Good bye.
